Pistols come out in Downtown DeLand bar fights; what are the rules?

BEACON PHOTO/BARB SHEPHERD
Quiet night in Downtown DeLand — Most nights in Downtown DeLand, like this one, are peaceful and quiet, with patrons enjoying food, drink and music at a number of nightspots.

By Pat Hatfield
BEACON STAFF WRITER

posted May 16, 2009 - 8:15:04pm

A gun was drawn in another recent Downtown DeLand incident involving bar patrons, but this time no one was injured.

This time, the area near Blind Pig Pub on West New York Avenue was the scene. It was the second Downtown DeLand incident involving a gun pulled from a vehicle in just a few weeks’ time.

In the latest incident May 2-3, two Stetson University students got into an argument. The students, each of them accompanied by friends, were members of competing fraternities. Both young men had been drinking. According to the police report, both students were underage.

Words developed into challenges, and this argument, like others, spilled over into the parking lot.

One student, a graduating senior, got into his vehicle and got a Ruger semiautomatic pistol from the glove compartment. First, he placed the gun on the dashboard to scare off the other group. When the students didn’t leave, he pointed the gun toward another student and told him to “Back off,” according to the police report.

The 2 a.m. disturbance wasn’t reported until hours later, when one student notified campus security that another student had aimed a gun at him. No one was injured, and no charges were filed, after DeLand Police and Stetson security officers talked with the students involved.

University officials would not comment specifically about the occurrence, except that Stetson Dean of Students Rina Tovar said a judicial process is under way.

“All judicial processes with our students are confidential,” Tovar said.

She said it’s uncommon for a Stetson student to carry a gun. It is a violation of university rules to have a gun on campus, even locked in one’s car.

DeLand Police Sgt. John Anderson said it’s hard to say whether more people are carrying guns in Downtown DeLand, or if more incidents are simply coming to light.

On April 15 this year, one man shot another man twice in the abdomen, after a fight spilled out of Half-Time Sports Bar on North Woodland Boulevard, into the parking lot.

In that case, the shooter retrieved a semiautomatic handgun from under the seat of his car and fired, according to the police report. He was arrested for attempted murder. The victim survived the shooting.

In November 2006, an innocent bystander, Louis Nout, was shot and killed with a 9 mm pistol outside Bill & Frank’s Brickhouse Grill. In that incident, patrons who had been fighting at Half-Time took their battle into the street. The shooter, Joseph Attardo, had a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

Attardo was arrested and convicted of manslaughter with a firearm. He was sentenced to 14 years in prison.

Had Attardo carried the weapon into the bar, he would have been guilty of another violation of law, even though he had a concealed-weapons permit. Even in the Old West, gunslingers often had to check their weapons at the door.

These incidents bring up the question: When is it legal to carry a firearm?

When guns are legal

Generally, police aren’t happy to see people carrying guns.

There are controlled situations when it is legal, DeLand Police Sgt. Anderson said.

It is legal to carry a concealed weapon, with a permit. A criminal background check and training are required. The minimum age is 21.

Even with a permit, however, guns cannot be taken into bars, courthouses or pharmacies. Breaking this law is a third-degree felony.

Even with a permit, pulling a weapon out of its holster for any reason other than self-defense is illegal.

With or without a concealed-weapons permit, it is illegal to walk in public with a firearm or other dangerous weapon openly displayed.

It is illegal to fire a weapon when intoxicated or under the influence of chemical substances.

Guns and cars

It is legal for people at least 18 years old to carry a gun in the car, without a special permit, Anderson said.

The key, he added, is the weapon cannot be “readily accessible.”

Stashing a gun under the seat or hidden beneath another item on the seat is illegal. Locking the gun in the glove box is OK; locking it in the trunk of the car is even better.

“I’m not a big proponent of carrying them in vehicles,” Anderson said.

He explained.

Even stored in a glove box, a gun can pose a hazard during a traffic stop. The driver should inform the officer about the gun’s presence immediately, Anderson said.

Otherwise, when the driver reaches into his or her glove box for the car registration and a gun comes tumbling out, it makes for a potentially dangerous situation.

Another reason not to carry firearms in vehicles is, they can be stolen during car break-ins, and end up in the hands of criminals.

Guns also present a danger to curious children riding in the vehicle.

Also, a gun bouncing around in a glove box can accidentally discharge. Two or three pounds of pressure on the trigger are often all it takes.

Bar owners

Drinking and lethal weapons don’t mix well.

The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism of the National Institutes of Health cites a 1997 study, “Epidemiological issues in alcohol-related violence,” by J. Roizen.

The study found up to 86 percent of homicide offenders, 37 percent of assault offenders, 60 percent of sexual offenders, up to 57 percent of men and 27 percent of women involved in marital violence, and 13 percent of child abusers had been using alcohol when they committed their crimes.

According to another community-based study, 42 percent of violent crimes reported to the police involved alcohol. Read more online at http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa38.htm.

The idea of a tavern owner bearing responsibility for keeping the peace is an old one, going back to Colonial days. Owners were expected to keep watch over their patrons, and keep them safe.

There are no criminal penalties for a bar’s failure to report a disturbance to police, or failure to cease serving a person who appears to be intoxicated, according to Chris Kelley of the local State Attorney’s Office and Kitrina Dean of the Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation.

Keeping an eye out for the client is often motivated, instead, by the bar owner’s fear of civil lawsuits stemming from mishaps involving intoxicated clients. The practice may also be simply part of the bar owner’s ethics.

Dean said the Division of Alcoholic Beverages, Firearms and Tobacco may cite a bar for serving a habitual over-drinker, if the bar has received written notice from a member of the habitual drinker’s family asking the bar not to sell liquor to that person.

The bar may be fined up to $1,000, and have its license suspended for seven days for the first offense. Penalties increase for subsequent violations.

— pat@beacononlinenews.com

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